Pm From DD and Melusine.

Dear clannies,

I come to you to explain melusine's (my wife irl) and my point of vue about behaviour of some of you ... when I say "you", it’s not all of you (for sure ^^) but who are concerned will recognise themselves.

As you noticed, melusine and I decided to vote "no" to punika's application and we have been told that without any reason, our votes won’t be counted. We gave reason after this ask but I’ve asked who can judge and then accept/refuse a clannie vote ... Indeed, sometimes, reasons can be just at the moment and can change later but the real reason is that we noticed that some "yes" vote mean a kind of "ok for other clannie, so ok for me" or "no for other clannie, so no for me" that’s what I call a "no reason" vote.
I think that "no reason" should be a "no vote" but, after all, I have not to judge others (and then I cannot accept to be judged). So, what’s the difference between a no reason vote and a "no" vote with no reason?
In this case, melusine and I had a bad feeling about punika's behaviour but we decided to don’t give reason because it won’t have been fair towards punika because some could have vote "no" just because we voted no (as I explained higher).
I gave my point of vue on a post but it was absolutely not a kind of asking of clan rules change! Rules are rules, but I thought that if I can vote, I can give my opinion however … it seems to be not so obvious ^^

I had an attempt of brainwash to explain me the goal of asking reason a "no vote" and that speaking of democracy is a kind of utopia … I tried to answer that democracy is not an insult, moreover, giving clannies a vote system is a tool of democracy but I’ve been answered that here is more a kind of dictatorship (not a whole one, a kind of). Why not, so let’s go to the end of things! If here is a dictatorship, why asking opinion?
Let me also say that a question which ask only “yes” or “no” is called a closed question. Closed question implies a closed answer Laughing

After this 2 hours attempt, melusine decided to leave the clan, that’s she did.

I just want to say all of you (really, all) that judging other is bad and easy. I try to judge no one (even no clannie) and I’d like the same towards me … I don’t admit to get any lesson because I don’t follow mind of some, we are all different, all our differences make us rich – even in a clan. I try to understand everything/everyone even if I don’t agree with them … That is called “opened mind”.
But, getting a forum, building rules to accept/expel clannies, beginning to look who come on forum or not (and then deciding who is active or not active - which means nothing), how people must play (or not) anywhere in game … really, be careful with such methods !
Here are not the police, just a clan of a GAME! All this is only virtual world, not real life! Clan chief, webmasters or others, your little power is only virtual: only god can judge us, please don’t forget it.

I thought these 2 last days of this situation and I think it will be worse because human beings are what they are and when I can read on some post about trying to change people because they don’t come (or not enough) on forum make me really scared. Some people are no life, have no job or both but others have real life, with wife and children or just don’t understand English or just want to play … I cannot come all days on forum or on some period which can be long, so with this system which seems to born, I think there will be a problem, really soon ^^.

For all those reason, I decided to leave too. I have no anger or hate or bad feeling towards anyone of this clan, I am sincere, even brainwashers ^^ I’ve understood their subliminal message but I am sorry, I am not a sheep :p. I have never asked to change anything of the clan rules or something like that and some acted as if I did it! Too many noise for so stupid reasons, I don’t want to spend my time to pull my hair with others … I am too old for that Smile

I really whish I could still play with all of you, really all. It has been a great pleasure to be an Apotheosis, but I think it wont be true in some time … I prefer leave with good memories, before having soon a “riot” Wink

I whish you all the best, first in your real life, also in EPT, this little game of which we seem to be all addicted ^^. If you have any question/comment you can all ask/tell me, just pm me in game, I will answer with pleasure!

Sincerely,
David aka DDivinity[MAG] & Tiphaine aka melusine, French players on EPT world …

PS: time made me right about punika, he just acted as a kid and seems to be nice

dolu wrote:Dear clannies,

I come to you to explain melusine's (my wife irl) and my point of vue about behaviour of some of you ... when I say "you", it’s not all of you (for sure ^^) but who are concerned will recognise themselves.

As you noticed, melusine and I decided to vote "no" to punika's application and we have been told that without any reason, our votes won’t be counted. We gave reason after this ask but I’ve asked who can judge and then accept/refuse a clannie vote ... Indeed, sometimes, reasons can be just at the moment and can change later but the real reason is that we noticed that some "yes" vote mean a kind of "ok for other clannie, so ok for me" or "no for other clannie, so no for me" that’s what I call a "no reason" vote.
I think that "no reason" should be a "no vote" but, after all, I have not to judge others (and then I cannot accept to be judged). So, what’s the difference between a no reason vote and a "no" vote with no reason?
In this case, melusine and I had a bad feeling about punika's behaviour but we decided to don’t give reason because it won’t have been fair towards punika because some could have vote "no" just because we voted no (as I explained higher).
I gave my point of vue on a post but it was absolutely not a kind of asking of clan rules change! Rules are rules, but I thought that if I can vote, I can give my opinion however … it seems to be not so obvious ^^

I had an attempt of brainwash to explain me the goal of asking reason a "no vote" and that speaking of democracy is a kind of utopia … I tried to answer that democracy is not an insult, moreover, giving clannies a vote system is a tool of democracy but I’ve been answered that here is more a kind of dictatorship (not a whole one, a kind of). Why not, so let’s go to the end of things! If here is a dictatorship, why asking opinion?
Let me also say that a question which ask only “yes” or “no” is called a closed question. Closed question implies a closed answer Laughing

After this 2 hours attempt, melusine decided to leave the clan, that’s she did.

I just want to say all of you (really, all) that judging other is bad and easy. I try to judge no one (even no clannie) and I’d like the same towards me … I don’t admit to get any lesson because I don’t follow mind of some, we are all different, all our differences make us rich – even in a clan. I try to understand everything/everyone even if I don’t agree with them … That is called “opened mind”.
But, getting a forum, building rules to accept/expel clannies, beginning to look who come on forum or not (and then deciding who is active or not active - which means nothing), how people must play (or not) anywhere in game … really, be careful with such methods !
Here are not the police, just a clan of a GAME! All this is only virtual world, not real life! Clan chief, webmasters or others, your little power is only virtual: only god can judge us, please don’t forget it.

I thought these 2 last days of this situation and I think it will be worse because human beings are what they are and when I can read on some post about trying to change people because they don’t come (or not enough) on forum make me really scared. Some people are no life, have no job or both but others have real life, with wife and children or just don’t understand English or just want to play … I cannot come all days on forum or on some period which can be long, so with this system which seems to born, I think there will be a problem, really soon ^^.

For all those reason, I decided to leave too. I have no anger or hate or bad feeling towards anyone of this clan, I am sincere, even brainwashers ^^ I’ve understood their subliminal message but I am sorry, I am not a sheep :p. I have never asked to change anything of the clan rules or something like that and some acted as if I did it! Too many noise for so stupid reasons, I don’t want to spend my time to pull my hair with others … I am too old for that Smile

I really whish I could still play with all of you, really all. It has been a great pleasure to be an Apotheosis, but I think it wont be true in some time … I prefer leave with good memories, before having soon a “riot” Wink

I whish you all the best, first in your real life, also in EPT, this little game of which we seem to be all addicted ^^. If you have any question/comment you can all ask/tell me, just pm me in game, I will answer with pleasure!

Sincerely,
David aka DDivinity[MAG] & Tiphaine aka melusine, French players on EPT world …

PS: time made me right about punika, he just acted as a kid and seems to be nice

Dear clannies,
I regard to the above message. After I have read the message, I notice something and find that this is a very small issue. Well this is just a game in our life don’t need to take it so hard. Why, we playing this game? We play this game is to release our self for after 1 day of work or passing our time. During at work we facing a lot of problem and when we reach home, we can’t bring the problem back home right. So what we can do is after work we will login to EPT to relax our self and have fun on the game. As for those PPL that not working, EPT is a very nice game for all of us to pass our time coz at home nothing to do; if we don’t play game then time will be very hard to pass. Why we must because of a very small issue and make all of us unhappy?
1st, “you” are u guys secretive over this word. Let me ask you guys, how long have you know David, and will David mention or talking bad about all of you? The answer is in your mind. I am not siding anyone in the clan. Just a feedback. Remember all of us are from difference country and difference language. Sometime our English is poor and need to correct it. Sometime we don’t understanding what they are talking about. But we can always ask. In this clan we should able to find a lot of helpful and friendly PPL. 2nd, on the vote. If u vote no then keep to no, u don’t have to change it to yes because of other PPL vote yes. If u changes, it does not make any good credit to u. Example, at first when I wanted to join into this clan. I never put up more detail about me. So I just leave to u guys to judge whether am I been accept into the clan. If happen that I am not accepted by the clan. I am happy with it, because I got a chance to know some of you. Why that I mention that is just a small issue, let me tell u what have happen to me. After I have been accepted by the clan, I login to EPT and party with some clannies. LetMeFly, he will call me "ah lian", am I going to angry with him over this small issue. And if everyone because of a single small issue and bring up then our poor dolu will be very busy of handling all kind nonsense. Am I right that say that?

3rd, Well now that David and Melusine have left the clan do u think that we should invite them back because they have been in the clan for so long and always remember those happy days with them. Don’t u guys agreed? Just forget about what have happen and pass is pass, we need is a happy, friendly and helpful clannies. If we can be in this three words that I mention then our Apotheosis Clan will be a very strong clan in EPT.


Sincerely,
Mc22 (Mary Chua)

Dear friends,
There is a point at which I agree with David. But there are things that he didn't understand.
David, to you. I know that the clan recruitment voting process wasn't the thing that you expected. But it's different than any other voting. In general voting in for presidents takes much more time than usual clan voting. They have many speaches, they tell what they want to do, and if you take time to listen to them, you know who is the right person, and who do you want to vote for. We can't do such a thing, it's unreal.

But it's a bit different here. We vote to add members to our huge clan. We vote to help our leader to add members that want to join, and usually who leader doesnt know. It's the way to ask us opinions. Give a hand to a person that's overworked already.

So leader decided to ask clanies, his friends to give their opinion about people who want to join. A plain "Yes" or "No" doesn't say too much. You don't go to vote for your president just by reading his application or seeing him 3 times in Ricarten (comparison). It's just too hard. Lu or Danny can't add members like this.

There could be no application, no voting process, leaders could add members just by chars that they need. "Oh, you're lvl 100? Yep, we need you *adds*" That's just not right. And leader asks us if he can add a person in clan by voting. They do it becayse they trust us. And it's not for their benefits, it's for us all.

Let's say we will make it totally democratic. 15 Yes for a person and no opinion, ok, leader is happy, he can add him/her. But after some time he realises that this person doesn't agree with something (or any other problem, so many things might show up that the leader didn't know and that was hidden by a no-opinion vote) that is a priority in clan. What he can do? He trusted democracy that turned out wrong.

Now lets do the same person with reasonable vote. 15 votes Yes. Lets say some members knew him/her. They say: "Oh, he is really nice, he got high lvl and he's funny. But he doesn't like this and that, though I think he might get used to it", other say "Yea, I think the same as you, he might not like it, though I will give him a chance by a Yes" and so on and so on. Now the leader can think.. He is able to talk with clanies that the problem is too big. And he might persuade them to change their vote.
The same situation if we imagine no reasonable voting with any "No". take for example.. 15 votes yes and 5 no.
What to do now? All leader can do is talk with members and ask REASONS. Only reasons can tell whats wrong with the applicant. And that's why we write reasons in voting process. To take away some work from leaders. To help them^^

Some members aren't able to login game too oftwn. They don't know too many characters in the game. They vote just by looking at applications or by reason of other people. Sometimes it's good, sometimes not.
But if you knew someone for very long time and you think that he is perfect, someone might know him too, and have a totally different opinion. You might say "He is my best friend" other might say "He is my worse enemy".
He might be not what you think he or is. And that's why I will stick to the reasons.

Guys,
Our voting process might not be perfect. We can TALK to change it.
I don't want to loose my precious friends.. I know that some don't want to talk about such problems because they don't have time, courage or they just don't feel for it. But there are so many ways to repair it. We can do everything to change rules. Just tell us what you think and don't give up by leaving =/
Besides, this idea had been used in so many clans, Lu used it everytime in each clan and I don't think he ever had problems. But now there are problems. Do you see anything that keeps us away to think of any better solution?
David, Tiphaine, I don't want to loose you guys. Why can't we work harder to make it good for everyone?
I'm the one that brought you to this clan, I wanted you to feel great in it. And now I don't want it to fall apart.. Why give up.....

Julia

i see sooo many good points in these posts, and i understand where everyone is coming from. I just want to make one point and i'll go back to my corner and hide some more lol and i'll not try to write a long one since this topic is already so long (but i think it is good and needs to b long, cuz there is a lot to say on this topic, but mine will b shorter i hope)

DD mentions that he changed his mind about Punika at the end of his pm, and says he just acted like a kid. Well he was a kid, but also the way he went about gettin votes was the wrong way and i think he needs to learn that. I dont think our voting process let us down on this one. He is a nice kid, but i dont think his actions would have been right for Apo and if he did get in i could see bigger probs arising. I know that some ppl just vote as others have, and i dont really agree with that. But it is their choice to vote as they wish. I like that ppl post reason with all votes, it lets me see the real side of whoever is applying if i dont know them, and lets me choose. Yes i admit there maybe some things wrong with our system, but then again there are flaws in all systems. Even the government isnt perfect, so why must we b perfect? all we can do is try our best at it, after all "to error is human" and arent we all humans behind these machines? lol

DD speaks that only God can judge us, and he is right. but god gave us free will, and all we can do is live our lives the way we think god would want us to. I dont want to see DD and Melu go, and i have expressed this to them. But it is there choice and i must accept it, although if u guys ever wish to come back i know i'll vote for u ^^ .

ok well i am gettin long so i'll just spit it out lol I think that the system we have works, and dolu has done very good with it (far better then i did with my old clan)! I think that if the system fails us then we should wry about changes, but at the same time i dont wish to see nemore of our "family" leave over this. So plz cant we continue to work on this voting, just keep trying it how it is and i think u will see it will not fail us. Yes the game is for fun, but in order to keep the game fun we need active members and clan chat.

well thats my 2 cents worth ty for ur time *goes back to corner now*

I wont talk about what is perfect and what isnt perfect...
But for exemple:

Henryballz made an application the 22th January.
he has 14 vote "yes". He hasnt any "no". And no members hold their vote or said they hold thier vote atm.

we dont know if ppl hold their vote or if they wanted to vote "no" . Maybe our member didnt check it or they forgot to vote.
Should I work to bring all ppl vote here?
atm 38 members are able to vote on our forum. I mean that 38 members have already voted in clan. And more than 50 members registered on forum.

He posted his application the 22th January.We are the 25th now and he is still not acceted. I know he really wants to join us. What ll think other players who ll make an application if they have to wait more than 4 days to be accepted in Apo? 4 days to wait when you want to change clan is long when you are an active player.

So if people wants to vote they have to be active. Active in the game and active in the forum. Its more difficult to be active on the game than in the forum. But I can be wrong...

So the most active players take the decision for the other members... Even if the other members wanted to give their opinion. This is the wrong side of our system.
David is someone who checks the forum more than some other members. But he is too late sometimes to share opinion or to give opinion. And I understand it its not fair for him.

In this case he has to follow the most active people... like a "sheep".

In this way some members acepted it. And they follow us because they trust in the decisions we made. Some members know me from our different clan. They know me a little bit.

I made Apotheosis with my experience of clan leader. It s not from my experience in real life because it a game here. But I was a simple clanie long time ago in the great Xternal. In this clan, leader takes all decisions. I was the most active member and stupid decisions I didnt agree was taken without talking to me. I was a pawn used for BC even if I was the most active at this moment. Leader didnt talk with me. I was sad and I left...
After that I was in Immortal. In Immortal we had a council. This council took the decisions for the whole clan. And I was in the counci. I became leader because the other leader couldnt manage it. They werent enough active. But when I was leader in Immo the council wasnt active either. I understood that our inactive members had more power than me even if I was the leader and even if I had the support from the active members in the council. I didnt accept it and I left...

In Apotheosis we let our members have a chance to give their opinion. And the most active members decide for our other members... In some clan if you are not active for more than one week you are expelled. Its a game.
When I wont be able to manage the forum as a leader. I ll let our active members to manage it. And I ll follow or I ll leave if I dont agree. This is not my clan but our clan. And I think that all our members have a chance to give their opinion. I m sorry if sometimes its too fast but its a game with Old people, teenagers, kids and old kids... The most active members make the clan...

Battl3mania wrote:
Just Ignore the retard (as u think he is) or leave it.
If u choose to leave u left ur most precious friends behind, not ur enemy (or w/e) ur anger arouse even greater.

loved
jaMz

I m not sure to understand it Jamz. Its a bit confusing...

Try appreciate whatever happening around us and live with it, dont leave clan for something doesnt worth it.
if u hates him put him retard/ignore list, if it makes u happy lol...

for exp:
some ppl are greedy and it shows, ppl would see sooner or later, we dont have to proved it. =)
Why choose to leave ur friends behind bcuz of retard/kids like him? -.-''

it's not because of Punika Jamz. It's because they couldn't accept something.
And yea.. I don't understand why they left either. I guess we didn't mean too much for them.

he reply my pm well i think theres another reason why, maybe they have to get ready for coming baby irl.
its not gonna be easy for 1st few month and have time for gaming... hope all goes well for them.

No there will be NO time for PT for the first month, I know..
I had no time left for anything the first month..

Yea, that might be a reason too, but why wouldn't they say so?
I don't understand their actions at all.

the one thing i learned when Jason left..... just let it be. Its hard to do and hard to understand why ppl do what they do, but they have their own reasons and if u just let them know they are still missed but dont push to hard u never know, they might just come back. so the best thing i can suggest is to "just let it be". Dont try to understand why they did what they did, they felt that they had to do it, and tried their best to give us reasons we can understand. so now comes the test of ur friendship on if u can accept it and not push them to come back, just be there for them netime they need a friend, and let them know u r there for them

SerpentPriestess wrote:the one thing i learned when Jason left..... just let it be. Its hard to do and hard to understand why ppl do what they do, but they have their own reasons and if u just let them know they are still missed but dont push to hard u never know, they might just come back. so the best thing i can suggest is to "just let it be". Dont try to understand why they did what they did, they felt that they had to do it, and tried their best to give us reasons we can understand. so now comes the test of ur friendship on if u can accept it and not push them to come back, just be there for them netime they need a friend, and let them know u r there for them

ohhh well said for a blonde...

well if u ask me...

it wasnt just the votes i think.
if u read inbetween the lines there are also other points of regret. they might be of smaller priority BUT if added together u suddenly get more than u can take.

but it is like it is (and alrdy has been pointed out enough in this thread): ppl do what they need to do even if u dont get it.
so either u get along with it or u dont.

but since DD isnt out for good from EPT but just from APO: we will see what the future will bring.
DD and M - u r welcome back anytime

Yea.. you are right. I guess I was too emotional and not too lenient on this part.
They left, that doesn't mean I won't try to bring them back.